mississippi makes less than minimum wage. they are blocking care and the state. during the pandemic, people did not have health care. and they're also closing the water. that's why people are coming together because they're tired of it and frustrated. >> indeed. bishop william barber, brooke floyd, thank you both very much. much appreciate it. that is tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts now. idout. all in with chris hayes st>> to- >> the january six committee gears back up, and forward community advisor speaks up. >> there was much more coordination in the american public than even imagine, when it got into january six. >> tonight, my exclusive interview with former republican congressman denver riggleman, on claims that and you broke off trump world connections to january six extremists, and his response to committee pushback on his aha moment. >> we got a real of moment when you say that the white house switchboard has connected to a rioters phone while it's

happening. that's a pretty big aha moment. >> then, why a far-right victory in italy is sending shockwaves throughout europe and beyond? and just when you thought cool treatment of asylum seekers could not backfire anymore -- >> it's not just an effectual that is hurting people in order to get attention. >> when all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening from new york. i am chris hayes. this week, the january 6th committee returns from recess, with another public hearing that maybe it's last. tens of millions of americans watched the first set of hearings in june, july. there's some evidence that put a good effect. a poll conducted in the days before the eight hearings show that 40% of republicans believe donald trump is at least partly to blame for the attack on the capitol, up from 33% before the hearings. and all along, the committee's goals for these public hearings have been pretty clear. most importantly, they want to err the most salient facts about just what happened on

january 6th, the plot that led up to the attempted coup, and who was responsible for it. but they've also, white assiduously, aimed to build a wide coalition in american politics, people who are on the side of defending american democracy and against the coup. and do that and, the committee has made a particular effort to highlight self-described, about conservatives and republicans to help make their case. they feature testimony from donald trump's own white house counsel, pat cipollone, and his attorney general, bill barr. you've heard from the vice president chief of staff, marc short, and his stop council, greg jacob. the committee also called former federal judge, michael luttig, who was a hero and conservative legal sir circles. rusty bowers, the arizona house speaker, and georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger testified. both of those respected elected republicans. it's all the effort to show republicans that even people who share the politics, we share their worldview or

ideology, their faith and their commitments, recognize the danger and the abnormality of what happened leading up to and on january 6th. there's another really interesting person that fits in that mold, who's been part of the committees weren't. he is a rain mostly behind the scenes until now. there is news about him this weekend. his name is denver riggleman. is now very much in the public eye, because he's written a book which is coming out tomorrow, about his work as a staffer for the january six committee. he had an interesting path to the committee. he spent more than a decade in the air force, where he worked as an intelligence officer. in 2003, it was posed as national security agency, and in a few years later, he cofounded a military contract company. before selling that business, riggleman and his wife began a new venture, opening a distillery in virginia blue ridge mountains. it was their frustration with virginia's liquor taxes and strict regulations, which by the way are quite strict, that inspire riggleman to get into politics. and 2016, you launched a

quixotic campaign for governor, calling it a quote, whiskey rebellion, and when he dropped up three months later before the republican primary. soon, neither opportunity arose, a congressional seat opened up in virginia's fifth district. the incumbent there, republican tom gary, you may remember the story, was facing accusations he used his staff, as, personal servants, and decided not to run for reelection. and so, in 2018, with the endorsement of then president donald trump, denver riggleman was elected to the united states congress. he immediately joined the far-right freedom caucus voted with the president trump 92% of the time. but riggleman also began to develop reputation for some heterodox-y, for reaching across the aisle, sometimes riling up his own party. when he officiated the same sex wedding of two of his campaign staffers, the far-right turned on him. it was the beginning of the end of his quite short congressional career. finished off by a primary challenge from a more conservative candidate. riggleman also started speaking

out about the influence of the far-right, the dangers of disinformation, conspiracy theories that have fully infiltrated the republican party. in his farewell speech on the house floor, he admonished the bad actors in his party who are spreading lies about the 2020 election. >> a well instructed people and knowledgeable people, pillars of a working republic. those pillars are now being assaulted by disinformation and outlandish theories surrounding this presidential election. as we transition to a new administration, i implore all to consider the sources of information you receive, to fact check diligently, and to recognize that many bad actors, who spread fantastic conspiracy theories under banners like human on, kraken, stop the steal, scan demigod, many other emotive terms and code of now and, are not submitting information rooted in knowledge, but with questionable motives and greet. >> denver riggleman, with that

speech, essentially moved in the same kind of way, with his former colleagues, adam kinzinger of illinois, conservative republicans organize the danger of the maga movement, the one that is taking over the party. and when the house launched its investigation to january 6th, it was committee vice chair, liz cheney, who recommended denver riggleman to join the staff. he drew on his intelligence experience working to analyze data, including online activity and call records. in the book, riggleman wrote about his experience. i love the committee in april. he presents new information, and particularly, one of the -- >> you get a real aha moment when you see that the white house switchboard head connected to our rioters phone while it's happening. that's a pretty big aha moment. you get aha -- >> someone in the white house was calling one of the rioters, while the right was going on? >> on january 6th, absolutely. >> and you know who both ends of that call? >> i only know one end of that call. i don't know the white house and, which i believe is more

important. but the thing is, the american people need to know that there are connections that need to be explored more. >> now, let me be clear. members of the committee are clearly not happy about what denver riggleman is saying. congressman adam schiff of california, jimmy raskin of maryland, both took the opportunity to show down riggleman's claimed revelations this weekend. >> you know, i can't say anything specific about that particular call, but we are aware of it. and we are aware of lots of caveats between people in the white house and different people that were involved, obviously, in the coup attempt and the insurrection. >> i can't comment on the particulars. i can't say that, you know, each of the issues that mr. riggleman raised during the period he was with the committee, which ended, you know, quite some time ago, we looked into. and one of the things that i think has given our committee credibility as we've been very careful about what we say, not to overstate matters, not to understate matters. and without the advantage of the additional commission,

we've gathered since we left the committee, you know, it, i think it poses a real risk to these suggesting things. >> in a statement, the committee said in part, quote, mr. riggleman had limited knowledge of the committee's investigation. he departed from the staff in april prior to our hearings and much of our most important investigative work. since his departure, the committee has one down all the leading's, adjusting all the information that arose from his work. joining me now is the man in question, former congressman denver riggleman. his new book out tomorrow, it's the breach: the untold story of the investigation into january 6th. good to have you here. >> hey, thanks, chris. >> let's start on this. first of all, the sort of a broader context, clearly, not happy. here is how i understand they see it. you can sort of tell between the lines, right? you essentially betrayed trust. you go to work on staff there, and now, you are outselling the book. they ask you if you're gonna settle sellable, you said no. now, you are telling things that they haven't fully -- or things they want to control the information on, and air go

to a somewhat untrustworthy character. >> yeah, i did not betray their trust. i was gonna write a book beforehand, back in 2021 i said that. the thing is, i don't make this about, you know, some kind of beef about the community, because obviously, they did not read the book yet. it's a really what it comes down to. it's a little surprising that things some individual say, that don't think i've done a fantastic job, and it was a little interesting to see them say some of those things. >> i guess the question here is do you -- are you hoping the committee is successful in this undertakings? >> oh my goodness, yes! when i wrote a book, we show that the minute form of data, the smallest bite, proves that the committee is on the right direction. so a lot of this book, sadly, i think people are gonna be angry this is not an indictment against the committee. it's actually a positive book about the committee. but it just shows that we can't be more aggressive in the information warfare space. and just, you know, for instance, today, i just find it funny, you know, following up every lead, that's great. but you gotta know where to look. so today, in the book, i talked

about kellye sorelle, that we saw a little tiny bits of data in which he was trying to text the white house on december 20th. that obviously wasn't followed up, because the day we had an nbc reporter call about that tiny tip, we found out that kellye sorelle was dusting texting andrew giuliani. so the issues that you get a look at the data. they might look at thousands of leads, but these are not counterterrorism analysts. and what i'm saying, though, is that the investigation is going great. the committee has done well. but we are in a new war. we are in a forever war of information. and you have to look at these tiny pieces of data to really put together the command and control architecture that these individuals used. and the fact is, i think some of those dialogues that they're having, which some of it, some of its sad, i'm not a sociopath. sometimes, i get my feelings hurt. but they're still using our same data teams, the ones i built, the contrast, lines and lines of data, the text messages. that's all of our team. that's me. you don't, i find it interesting they say that. >> here's the other thing that i got from schiff's statement

there, right? is that they understand they have a target painted on their back, right? and anything, and slipup, any error is going to be the source of massive blowback and discrediting. and you can see that there have been, they have been extremely careful, and i would say conservative and what they presented. they may deliberations, this is -- your book is a channel outside of those deliberations about what gets made public. >> that's because the data is owned by the american -- it's owned by americans, it's not owned by me, it's not owned by the committee. this is a public trust. i was a former ceo. i've done this for 20 years. i probably forgot more about analytics, and everybody on the committee, right? that's why they picked me. you know, you talk about, you know, limited knowledge. well, limited knowledge, 20 years on the counterterrorism field, that is sort of something. >> let's talk about this one phone call, right? so, we know, and i don't think this has been disputed. i think this is established, right? it's fact, right? there was a phone call from the

white house switchboard -- >> that's a landline that actually is a switchboard, it's a default number that you can actually send through your call. you call off your desk phone, and you see the default number, and it goes to the individual. >> and that individual was a rioter at the capitol, and it happened, around 4:30, is that right? >> 16 34, local. >> i guess, what do you make of that, right? so, yes, it is an aha moment when you get with. the question is like, what does it add up to? >> what it adds up to his how in the world, in any way, would you have somebody on a white house desk, calling a rioter on january 6th? let's go through it. where they bring in pizza, probably not. how about was that a girlfriend? >> some low level staff, right? i mean -- >> to have an associate, whoever on that desk tone, is calling a rioter who's been convicted, he is a doj charge defendant. the committee is pursuing this.

they want to see the white house numbers, they could not get them. there is hundreds of them. so, there's so much more here. so, to say that -- >> what's so much more, here is my understanding of what i've seen following this very closely, right? >> right. >> you've got -- the white house is whipping this up. donald trump is whipping this up. he's got people that are his kind of off books team, right? the bannon, roger stone, and then, he's got people meadows in the center of it, and then, this sort of wider range of characters that are showing up. the question always is, what's the level of coordination? and then, more deeply, how much coordination do you need when the guy with the biggest megaphone in the world is telling people, to go down to the capitol? >> you need a little bit of coordination if you're talking about multiple groups that have multiple objectives. and you know, in the military, it's really commanders. and the commanders intent was we want to keep president trump in power, that's what he told us to do. all these groups, the, they had different organizations, and they hadn't talk to each other.

and if you look at kelly's role, if you look at roads, tarrio, those individuals -- >> stewart rhodes, and we get reo, enrique tarrio >> when you see that all three of those have been charged with conspiracy or seditious conspiracy, and you say that there's actually phone links between these individuals, and you have links to roger stone that are specific, you, know that will come out eventually, right? there is actually phone calls happening between these individuals. so, that's the kind of thing. it's like, okay, we know that roger stone, we saw chats on the newspaper washington post. quick reporting on that. we see all of these different things, but oh, by the way, digital confirmation that these individuals were contact, and that is mass. >> yeah, let me talk about stone. >> sure. >> it always seem to me, again, without any access to any data, that stone was sort of the middle diagram. we've gotten. we know that he was in the willard hotel, the day, this wall room.

we know he's around eastman. we know he has proud boys or oath keepers bodyguards. so all this stuff, we've seen. >> right. >> you write in the book, along the top members of the oath keepers and proud boys, there were connected to a higher number of -- ken paxton, bernie kerik, a former nypd commissioner, and a close ally of rudy giuliani, arthur schwartz was a manhattan political consultant to work closely with donald trump jr.. how central do you think stone's role is? >> i think this 2016, he's the stop the steal sort of founder there. so when you think about somebody and you see what he said, who he's been with, who is hired, he's called, he's contacted, roger stone is one of the most important factors of what happened on january 6th. it's just not what he said himself, but it's really in the connections and the data, and the people that work for him. so if you look at kristen davis, right? kristen davis practice is good operational security, roger stone, maybe kristin -- davis >> longtime association with roger stone. >> long time association with

stone. so, you know, that's why the committees on the right track here. they've done a fantastic job with the american public needs to know why they're doing such a great job because the data is backing up. >> how would you in the year 2022, as we sit here describe yourself politically? ideologically? >> i mean, even what happened in the last couple of days, you know it's funny. i would do the same -- if you are in the political drive you have to sort of rally the troops around you, right? or if you feel like you don't know what's coming, or your assertion of what's happening. so i have a feeling when the book really system or is that unaffiliated individuals, i think people are gonna calm down, because when you look at it, the committee has talked a lot about all the stuff. but i can explain to individuals, people that weren't in the d.c. beltway, people who may come to my distillery, they can read a 280-page book, that can break it down like, this is why it could happen, and this is why

it's true. >> that's what i want to talk to you about. i mean, you know, you are a republican, and you consider yourself a conservative. >> i do. oh yeah,. >> how do you understand what's happened. i mean, you are someone who i think in the long lines of liz cheney, adam kinzinger, you have a specific set of worldview, you've watched this utterly sort of toxic and insidious form of disinformation, lies, alternate reality, kind of -- this exercise domain, people that i imagine you call friends. >> i have lost family and friends. >> people that you know very well who believe things that you know not to be true. how do you understand what's happen? >> you know you, understand it from really, you know, those things that are gonna say that really backed up from what people say, self identify. but i think it comes from the belief system of good against evil, where they're just easily radicalized. and this is intentionally personal to me.

after the wedding, chris, when somebody comes up to your face, for me to you -- >> after the staffers wedding which is the same sex marriage that you initiated -- >> i might be a little bit angry. this is very personal to me. not just the death threats, or people messing with my vehicle when my daughter is driving it, which was actually a threat of my life. that happened. and i have someone come to my place, after marrying my to strap first, and scream, you are the general of the saudi might armies. i was called the antichrist. my wife was called this small of satan. that would make us the biggest power couple in the united states, by the way. >> it's a good one. >> and also, if you think about it too with a distillery, we were accused of funneling money for george soros. >> do you know that backlash was coming? and when your first face with it? because i talk to a lot of people who are in some issues. you saw rusty bowers. people who, i mean, i've talked to random public health people.

and you know, in tennessee, one day they're out saying, you should wear a mask, and then x people you've got people at their door. how do you understand -- what is happening in america that that happened to you and keeps happening with you? >> radicalization. social media has changed the landscape. and the ability to put money behind radicalization has maybe the biggest thing we've ever seen. i mean, chris, we can pick anyone want to go on the internet, right? deep web, dark web, opening up, i can go to any form. i was about to tell a joke, and i won't. i think -- [laughs] you know, we can sell select whatever we want. we've gone into a unique asked world. and by the way, it's good against evil. >> i'm a globalist, you know? there you go. >> denver riggleman, offer of the breach, which is out tomorrow, thank you very much. that was very illuminating. >> thank you. >> still ahead, the next public genuine sixth hearing is just days away. what the committee plans to

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comcast business. powering possibilities. ™ former january six committee staffer, denver riggleman is releasing that new book tomorrow, one day before the next, possibly last hearing by the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack. and no one knows yet exactly what the hearing will focus on. we don't have a witness list, but it may cover the alleged role of the man we were just

discussing, longtime trump ally and republican fixer, roger stone, and his efforts to overturn the election. according to the washington post, quote, the committee is considering including video clips, in which stone predicted violent clashes with left-wing activists, and forecast months before the 2020 vote that then president would use armed guards and loyal judges to stay in power. nicholas wu covers congress for politico, and he's been on the committee. and asha rangappa is a former fbi special agent, as well as an attorney and senior lecturer at yale university. and both join me now. nicholas, let me start with you, just in terms of your reporting on the committee, what the committee is preparing for this week? and also, their reaction to the riggleman book, which clearly, has them extremely and pleased? >> let's start with mr. riggleman. we know that the committee is really, they put some distance between itself and former congressman legal man, riggleman, as far as this bill goes. they put out a statement over the weekend noting that he left

the committee in april before he had actually -- before the committee interviewed some of its most important witnesses, like that's blown, or be able to call kasky hutchinson publicly. there is a certain degree of separation between themselves and the former aide. at the same time, you know, when i asked the committee chair about the book last week, he said that he just had no chance to read it yet, and he wasn't able to comment on it yet. and so, i think the committee's main focus has been on right now is trying to for this final hearing. and we know this is a company that's very tightlipped about its plans, they try to tamp down the leaks, they really keep things close to the chest until they're ready to present. and that i think is likely what we are going to see, as we head into this final hearing. >> i want to talk about the reporting that indicated stone, the subject, we know have some quick so big deal that we understand will be introduced

as evidence. i want to play one of these that we've got our hands on, asha, to get your reaction. because in some way, i think stone has been a figure who seems so central about whom we haven't heard a ton, despite the fact that he does seem at the sort of center. this is a little clip of documentary that was made, i think, i believe by danish filmmakers of roger stone. take a listen. >> excellent. bleep, bleep, probably -- shoe to go. cnn antifa, shoot to kill. bleep. >> amidst the bleeped out, that is roger stone saying shoe to cool about antifa. he was riding along with a danish documentary group. it does seem like there is more footage. and i wonder, what significance do you think stone place in the investigation, actually?

>> i think stone is going to be one of the main linchpins that ties a lot of these threats together. i mean, we already know that he actually had contacts, had physical protection by some of the militia groups that have since been charged with seditious conspiracy. so, we know that he was in communication with them. and i think the question is, what was the nature of that communication? and then, also, you know, he was the architect of this whole stop the steal movement. i mean, actually, he coined this back in 2016, in anticipation of that election. so, this has been a long con. and so, i'm not surprised that, you know, he had this formulated in his mind. and in many ways, i would say that i expect his role to be not very different than what surfaced in the mueller investigation, where he was a linchpin between, you know, wikileaks and the trump campaign. i mean, he's always kind of in

the center, getting his hands dirty, and that's where i guess he loves to be. and i will be interested to see what the committee has uncovered with regard to his role. >> it's a great point, because they've already been through this movie once before, in which stone place this kind of, sort of, plausible deniability, off book, roland a former adviser, kind of running ups that can, that are officially part of, you know, sanctions. but he can talk to other people, and he was convicted by a jury of witness tampering, obstruction. he ended up being pardoned by trump, which is why he was out and about doing his thing. after this. nicholas, what is your understanding about the schedule passed this hearing? there's some back and forth in the community, which was interesting to me, where some of the members seem to indicate this was the last monday had planned. let's cheney was not so fast. what do you think about that? >> well, the committee has said that this will be their final hearing for now. and given how a lot of the

scheduling has been with this investigation, we are inclined to believe them. but there is still very much reserve the right to hold another hearing if the opportunity arises. i mean, they set the bar pretty high for that. remember, the emergency hearing they held over the summer, the last-minute one, was when cassidy hutchinson came and testified publicly, and help fill a lot of blacks and investigation so far. it doesn't seem there's anything on schedule for now. remember, congress goes on break again on october. numbers go back home to campaign for reelection. so, at the very least, we know they have a final report coming before the end of the year. and there will likely be some kind of hesitation or hearing, until we have those findings, so, once this final argument is laid out for the january six committee, but that's just for the time being. >> you also wonder if there will be some kind of interim document issued before that final report, which many people and state as well. nicholas wu, asha rangappa,

thank you both, appreciate. >> still to come, ron desantis cannot escape his own human trafficking scandal. escape his own huma >> usually a communist regime in venezuela. you come here, and then somebody tricks you, somebody is using florida taxpayer money to get these migrants from texas to massachusetts. it's not just ineffectual, it's hurting people in order to get attention. >> republican governor of florida, cruelty blowing up in his face, ahead. his face, ahead.

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governor youngkin in virginia is doing a good job. i think that he has demonstrated that he is somebody who has not bought into the toxin of donald trump. but he campaigned recently for carrie lake. he went and campaigned -- >> republican candidate for governor in arizona. >> he's an election denier whose dangerous, and that's the kind of thing we cannot see in our party. we cannot see an accommodation like that. >> does that include campaigning for democrats if that's what it takes? >> yes. >> it does, okay [applause] >> america democracy so acute the republican congresswoman liz cheney says she will support democrats in november. it will be a completely shocking statement, we're not for the january six committee hearings, cultured by cheney

and democratic congressman bennie thompson of mississippi, highlighting the threat to american democracy, which is the number one issue for voters, according to a recent nbc news survey. higher cost of living and the economy. there's at least one more hearing in the docket as we head towards election day. this wednesday afternoon, we expect to hear more about donald trump's actions and inaction during the capitol riot. perhaps, a result of new interviews conducted and investigatory leads followed since the last he leads back in july. members have said there's still a large amount of evidence to display, but there has been no witness list provided for this hearing. you can of course watch the hearing live on msnbc, and special coverage, starting at eight eastern. and wednesday night, right here at 8 pm eastern, it's the latest edition of our primetime coverage of the hearings, breaking down what we learned and what may come next. rachel maddow hosts an all-star table of analysts, featuring nicole wallace, joy reid, alex wagner, ari melber, and of course, yours truly. it's gonna be a big night, so

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in a single, easy-to-use software. visit paycom.com and schedule a demo today. >> around the world, we are seeing the rise of right-wing nationalism, with groups of old-fashioned ideologies. latest example isn't italy, where a hard white coalition led by giorgia meloni, won a clear majority in yesterday's national election. meloni is the leader of the breeders of italy party which

has its roots in the fascism, like the actual neo-fascism of italy's fascism. she is now on track to lead the most right wing governor coalition the country has seen since world war ii. she's also been a big hit with a right-wing in the u.s.. republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene congratulated meloni on her victory, although she did misspelled our name. broadcaster ted cruz re-tweeted a video of meloni re-speaking, writing quote, spectacular. and here's trump advisor steve bannon with giorgia meloni talking to the guardian in 2018. ruth ben-ghiat this professor of history and studies, author of the book strongman: mulling the president. she also writes about democracy and autocracy and her podcast. ruth, italian politics, particularly nato battalion fascism is your work, your academic work. when people, you know, people on the right will say, you liberals, you call everything fascist, anything you don't like, any conservative, ashes. you're just sort of slandering this new conservative faction in italy.

what do you say to that? >> yeah, well, she is calling herself a conservative, and this is just to cover up. this is somebody who was a hard-core neo-fascist militant, from when she was 15, she became the leader of a neo-fascist party, the same party that was founded right after mussolini's death, just carry on fascism and in a post war. she became the leader of the organization. and the fact that, if you look at the parties logo, it has a dry colourfully minute, and that's not just about patriotism and the colors of the flag, she insisted that flame stay in the logo, because it's the flame that was in the original neo-fascist party and one. so, people have told her to take it out, and muscling his granddaughter is also in her party, who also told her to take it out and she won't because she is attached to this neo-fascist lineage. so the fact that she's saying

she's a conservative and a good patriot, i don't buy it. >> what is the significance of this victory in a country, obviously, who's politics are incredibly fluid? i was joking yesterday on twitter, the only servile lining is that most italians will hate meloni in three months or less, because the talons are essentially ungovernable. they always end up hating the prime minister. but what is the significance of this victory, which really has sent some pretty seismic shockwaves for europe and even across the u.s.? >> well, they got her own party got 26% of the vote, which is a huge growth from last time. the coalition as a whole had over 40%. so, she has a very clear mandate to govern. she has majority parliament. now, who are her governing partners? it's like doesn't inspire much optimism for a rule of law. you know, it is salvini's lead,

which is so racist, if yours ago he called for a mass cleansing of immigrants. and then there is -- from forza italia, he's a convicted criminal for many other things, trafficking. but yet, together, they have this majority in parliament, and so, it's true that it's very easy to make a coalition government fall in italy, but today, it's not clear that they're just gonna be there, you know, for six months or something, because this was also a protest vote against the other parties, in particular the central left, which was seen as kind of exhausted and no longer the advocate of the working class. and economic equality and unemployment are huge problems in italy. and they've also seen this as establishment, and elitists, and they've kind of lost their way in that sense. >> yeah, this is the dominant theme across essentially all of

europe, the uk, the u.s., right? people talk about a place like youngstown, or parts of the belt that used to be democratic stronghold, and have moved over and struck. there are applications of that in english downs, when we saw the brexit returns, and we saw what the courtroom was standing for election. at the flipside, it's that urban centers, metro poles, that have relatively high education. populations that used to be conservative, moving towards the center left. we see that and everywhere we saw ontario italian returns. places that have been moving in the -- what, how do you understand what's going on, this trend that's happening across developed a mock receipt? if i were democratic strategist, i'd be taking very careful note of this. and the strongholds of the left like tuscany and romania, they

have very low, they did very badly. and you know, democratic parties, they're not using the same kind of emotional appeals. and also, you know, concrete policies that are really catering to working class and lower middle class was, but a lot of this is about emotions. the right has been able to make few people feel part of something, with rallies and slogans, and chance, and a sense of elevating people and taking them seriously and listening to them, even if it's false. and democrats have not been able to do this as well, and they're paying the price all over. >> it does seem, also, central to all of this, immigration, right? the fact that these are, the movement of people across borders has increased quite a bit in the last 20 to 30 years. it has changed societies and

their demographic makeup, not just in the west, in the uk, italy, but across europe, particularly places with igniting populations. and this idea of, you know, italy for the italians, has a certain kind of power that connects, again, across a lot of these countries. >> yeah, does. i'm glad you mentioned immigration, because again, on the theme of meloni we're gonna keep hearing, including from our friends in the gop, that she is a conservative, and that she's a great replacement theory. but so far to the right that she's even to the right of tucker carlson, because there are people who espouse wage replacement theory, this demographic change happening like it's passive, fewer white babies. she actually believes that this is a, she calls it, it design, a plan by george soros and the eu to flood europe with mass immigration and make white civilization, you know, fall apart. >> we have heard that before

for sure. ruth ben-ghiat, thank you very much. >> still to come, ron desantis human trafficking scandal, first account on a mysterious woman who lured dozens of migrants on a plane with false promises, next. promises, next

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step closer to learning the identity of the figure at the center of florida republican

ron desantis stunt to essentially traffic migrants to massachusetts, without their knowledge or genuine consent. when her law recruited to help pick other passengers for that light to massachusetts, now says he feels betrayed. the man who spoke to the media anonymously says perla offered him food, clothes and money, to help recruit other migrants to be flown to massachusetts. he says he, was not aware of this scheme nor that it was backed by the governor of florida, but he was told they were going to a place that would shelter them. he also says perla warned him not to talk to reporters. also, the washington post manage to interview one migrant who was part of that desantis scheme, a man named jose. he fled venezuela, after he says he was stabbed by a gang who believed his family had ties to an anti government group. jose described being misled about where he would be taken, and the fear and heartbreak of being deceived at his most vulnerable moment. quote, when jose met perla outside of mcdonald's, he told

her he needed to reach philadelphia, where an and sprint had offered to potomac. i can take you where you are going, he said perla told him. she's very nice, it looked like everything she was saying was true. in the plane, desantis charger, instead took jose and about 50 other desperate people to an island in the atlantic ocean of massachusetts, instead of philadelphia. josé says he was devastated. quote, if i tell you how i felt, i want to cry, josé said. i felt destroyed inside, tricked, frightened. i did not know if they were gonna put me in jail, if they'd deport me. i just wanted to get to philadelphia. there is now a class action suit against desantis for this stunt. the florida governor is defending himself with this waiver, the migrants signed. hey, they volunteered. but as you can see, it's only partially translated into spanish. the part mentioning massachusetts is only in english. what is more, and get this. as the post reports, jose and others signed a waiver under less than ethical circumstances, it appears. quote, perla offered migrants

ten dollar mcdonald's gift cards, if they signed the waivers. so, desperate people who don't know where their next meal is coming from, unknowingly signing with the right to recourse, in exchange for fast food. that is the consent desantis is waving around and defend himself. ron desantis has actually brag to donors about the stunt, days before it happened, telling them, quote, maybe we will go to texas and help, maybe we'll send to chicago, hollywood, martha's vineyard, who knows? desantis's stunt was actually calling something a rift among federal public, it's not because of cruelty, but because of the intention he's getting. new york times reports the texas republican governor greg abbott is mad desantis essentially ripped off his bit. abbott's busing vulnerable migrants to blue cities for months now, with relatively little fanfare. since the shadow of the primary for 2024 requires republicans to outdo one another and how monstrous they can be, it feels like desantis stole abbots thunder. for his part, desantis is reportedly envious that abbott gets to spend so much time

standing along the border. quote, desantis used to donors last year about abbott's good political fortunes, to share 1254 miles of border in mexico, and complain he did not have the same he uses a backdrop. and an event in texas, secretary of transportation was asked about the weirdly thirsty antics of ron desantis. he summed it up pretty darn well. >> obviously, there are issues where the border, with migration. but these are the kinds of stunts you see with people who don't have a solution [applause] >> governor desantis was in congress. where was he when they were doing debating immigration reform? what have any of these people don't to be a part of the solution? so you know, i get if you are after attention, but it's one thing to call attention to the problem, when you have a course

of action as some folks here are speaking about issues, exercising their first amendment rights, or an elected office. it's enough to call attention to the problem because the problem is actually more useful than even the solution, and that helps you call attention to yourself. [applause] and that's what's going on. the problem is one thing if it's just people being obnoxious, but if human beings are being impacted by that. usually a communist regime in venezuela, you come here, and then, somebody trick suit, somebody using for the taxpayer money for some reason except going from texas to massachusetts. it's not just ineffectual. it's hurting people. in order to get attention. >> the problem more useful than the solution, clearly the case, and hurting people to get attention, which is as good of the maggot i've heard. that is all in on this monday

night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. good to see you. much appreciated. and thanks for joining us here this hour. very happy to have you here. i was almost 100 years ago. it was 1922, 1922, it was october 1922, and the fascist party announced that they would march into the nation's capitol. they would march on rome. and the prime minister at the time knew that if they were going to march on rome, this meant that the fascists were going to try to take over. they were going to try to mount a physical fascist coup. to defend against that, he wanted to call up the military to defend rome, to stop the coup. but the king at the time wouldn't agree to that. so the military wasn't called up to defend the capitol and instead what the king did is he caved to the